Posted by Alan T.
This question came about during this year's (July 2008) Unity Shabbaton when Marilin Lipman and Rabbi David Paskin asked me if I think I'm keeping Kosher when eating in a non-Kosher restaurant. Evidently, they had a wager on my response, and to Rabbi David's surprise, my answer was "Yes, absolutely."
This is a challenge that many of us Kosher keeping non-Orthodox Jews face in modern times (and some Orthodox friends as well). As I see it, there are gradations of Kashrut. Some people keep Kosher at home, but not outside the home. And, many others, myself included, will eat dairy or vegetarian or selected fish items in non-Kosher restaurants. Others, of course, will only eat in Kosher restaurants. And still others will eat cold items, such as salads or fruit, in non-Kosher restaurants.
I realize that, to some people, I am simply not maintaining Kashrut. And that's fine. But to me, I am consciously making a decision not to eat non-Kosher meat outside the home and to ask about certain foods which may be questionable (onion soup, for example, which almost always has a beef or chicken stock).
If Kashrut is about intention and a set of values, as I believe it is, then I always have proper food consumption according to Jewish law at the forefront of my mind. As I've told my kids on many occasions, keeping Kosher is a tangible way for me to express my Jewishness. That I choose to eat veggie in non-Kosher restaurants or have only one dish-washer in my kitchen in no way diminishes the fact that I truly believe I am a Kosher-abiding Jew. I am eager to hear what you have to say. Let the discourse begin!
13 comments:
Posted by Bob P.
Alan, I would have thought the answer was no (at least in a technical halachic sense, from both Conservative and Orthodox perspectives), but someone told me recently that there are one or more responsa from the Rabbinical Assembly Law Committee (Conservative) that allow this.
The C movment has permitted eating cold dairy in non-kosher restaurants under certain circumstances since at least the early 60s.
More recently, Rabbi Barry Leff's teshuvah about eating hot dairy out in non-kosher restaurants is available at the teshuvah section of his blog. He also has a discussion of it in which I was a participant.
Interestingly, the Shulchan Aruch says that if someone is shomer shabbat, you should accept their testimony as to whether their home is kosher or not. See Rabbi Shlomo Riskin's essay at Ohr Torah Stone. Key quote from Rabbi Riskin:
On the basis of a Rabbinic discussion in a number of places in the Talmud (B.T. Gittin 2b, 3a and Hullin 10), normative Halakha determines that an observant Jew may eat in any home where the individual responsible for the kitchen is a Sabbath observer. Once he/she observes the Sabbath, he/she becomes an acceptable witness who automatically testifies as to the Kashrut of the home. Note well that the Shulkhan Arukh doesn't ask that the would-be guest inquire or himself check into the ingredients; the assumption is that the Sabbath observer (a suitable criteria for which is one who does not use electricity on the Sabbath) would be careful about the Laws of Kashrut as well. As my revered Rebbe Rav Soloveitchik zt"l was accustomed to say, "Kashrut is more a matter of reliability (ne'emanut) than it is of truth." I rely on the Sabbath-observer even though I do not check into all of the products used.
In general I think that saying "I keep kosher" has to be placed in a communal context. During the original discussion, Rabbi Paskin mentioned that there were people who he thought were too lenient to be considered as 'keeping kosher' e.g., people who ate hot food in non-kosher restaurants. But he also said there were people who were too stringent on kashrut to be reliable judges of what wasn't kosher. His two examples were people who kept chalav yisrael (a stringent standard about dairy products) and those who insisted on separate dishwashers.
In my Orthodox community most people do not have two dishwashers. But they do use the one dishwasher they might possess for either milk or meat and wash the other sort of dishes by hand. So by Rabbi Paskin's definition my entire community is too strict to be reliable judges of what is kosher.
I'd rather say our communal standard is more stringent than Rabbi Paskin's community's standards.
As a practical matter, when I try to find out whether I can eat hot food at someone's home, I don't ever ask them what they do outside the house. If Alan keeps two sets of dishes/pots/pans/etc., uses only kosher meat, and only cooks processed food when it has a hecksher, that's enough for me to eat meat at his place. Whether he eats out at uncertified restaurants and what he eats when he does isn't relevant to my determination.
I consider that keeping kosher style out.
When we were part of a conservative community keeping orthodox kashrut standards we had a number of interesting discussions. Someone would invite us to their house for a meal and I'd ask all excitedly "oh where do you get kosher meat and kosher cheese" which led to discussions on what that person meant by keeping kosher. It also led to interesting situations as a guest as in some people's houses I'd only eat meat or dairy or pareve foods. People tended to be embarrassed when I'd ask about the buying meat/cheese and I thought that was an interesting response. They were perfectly ok keeping kosher at different/non-traditional standards than I was but when faced with someone that kept traditional kosher they felt uncomfortable at first.
I think any step is a good one. Being aware of what you eat is important. Keeping some form of kashrut helps one be aware. The only time I found an answer like Alan's was when I recieved invites and we kept somewhat similar kosher standards out of the house as in except that we'd eat food that had been cooked in a kitchen that held to conservative standards rather than ours as long as the ingredients for our meal were up to our standards.
My question/point was that the Jewish community needs a common language about which we can talk about Jewish practice. To suggest that one "keeps Kosher" may indeed mean many things to many people. The problem we run into is that when we all have our own understanding of what "keeping Kosher" means then "keeping Kosher" ends up meaning nothing - because it is no longer a part of our shared, communal language.
I eat strictly vegetarian food out of the house (no meat, chicken, fish, etc.) I do not keep kosher.
The problem, for me, is not how I define kashrut when it has to do with my own practice. The problem, rather is when I am describing my practice to others and inviting them to come into my world and my definition of "keeping Kosher."
Were I to bring, even strictly vegetarian items that do not have a hechsher into my home and then suggest that I keep kosher, I would be misleading many, many people.
There are always extremes and I am not suggesting that we allow those on the fringes to define our language. I am suggesting however, that if we destroy our shared language by expanding our definitions beyond recognition - then we will have lost an important part of what it means to be a part of the Jewish people.
Rabbi David
Larry,
How did you become aware of Rabbi Leff's teshuvah?
Bob
I believe Rabbi Leff publicized it on several C email lists, including TOR-CH. After that I started following his blog.
There's a lot here to digest (excuse the pun), but for me, the bottom line is that I am passionately and intentionally keeping Kosher. BTW, this is not about me, but about people who make decisions in modern society that are divergent from the more stringent halachic view. I have to think we all do that: whether it's cholev yisroel cheese, mevushal wine, Glatt meat products, keeping Kosher at home but not outside the home, or maintaining a consistent level of Kashrut that includes eating dairy, fish or veggie in non-Kosher restaurants (or homes).
To Rabbi David's point about eating strictly vegetarian in a restaurant and then suggesting that he is not keeping Kosher, I respectfully disagree. Why would someone be punctilious about what he or she is eating if not for reasons of Kashrut? Yes, many people are vegetarians, but I'm talking here about Kosher meat eaters at home who would never consider eating meat, or any other obvious treif products, in a restaurant.
And, although I understand the halachic rationale regarding Conservative responsa being posited here by several people, I truly don't believe that's what motivates most non-Orthodox Jews to keep Kosher out of the home. For most of us, I believe (or certainly for me), Kashrut was something I adopted as a teenager, and after a lapse of a few years, as a young adult. I am on that proverbial ladder of observance and constantly need to negotiate -- with myself, my family and my friends -- what level of Kashrut works in a variety of social settings. For now, I am comfortable at the rung which allows for eating what I consider acceptable foods in non-Kosher venues.
"To Rabbi David's point about eating strictly vegetarian in a restaurant and then suggesting that he is not keeping Kosher, I respectfully disagree. Why would someone be punctilious about what he or she is eating if not for reasons of Kashrut?"
Being punctilious does not immediately translate to being "kosher" when we are using the "universal" term - kosher. If one wants to feel that they themselves, in their own world are being punctilious (can you tell I love that word) for the sake of Kashrut - Kol Hakavod. That does not mean that that person's kashrut fits into the shared language of Judaism in which kashrut has been defined.
Rabbi David:
If someone follows the halachic rulings of the C movement regarding and eats unsupervised cheese and stam yayin (unsupervised wine) are they keeping kosher? If they use electricity on Shabbat for non-melacha purposes (for example, turning on an electric fan but not using an electric oven) are they keeping Shabbat? I would think we would have to say they are, unless we want to deprive the C movement of any halachic legitimacy at all.
I appreciate the desire for a conversational shorthand, but I don't think of it as a necessity. In my experience, I've had a number of interesting discussion as a result of going beyond the question "Do you keep kosher" and instead discussing precisely what rules people keep. This can be tedious at times when you simply would like to either invite someone to dinner or accept a dinner invitation, but I find it pays benefits more often than one would expect.
When I discuss my own observance I do not tell people I am shomer Shabbat or shomer kashrut, but rather, that I am zocher Shabbat and zocher Kashrut. This way, I do not lead anyone to believe that I am observant in any way other than my own understanding of observance.
I will admit my own discomfort with my position. I do not want to give our collective language over to the most traditional. However, the practices and beliefs that survive as meaningful and vital parts of Jewish life are those that stand the test of time. Kashrut and Shabbat observance according to our communal language - that is observed according to halacha has survived and in many ways has kept Judaism alive. Were it not for our traditional understandings of these mitzvot - we would not even be able to have this conversation for we would have no starting point.
One more thought. I am not embarrassed or saddened that I am not shomer shabbat and kashrut. On the contrary, I am proud that I am zocher these mitzvot. And I might suggest that we should begin re-examining not what makes something kosher, but what practices make one a serious Jew. The vast majority of the Jewish world is not shomer kashrut. Many more are zocher kashrut and still far too many - have no kashrut in their lives. We must begin to celebrate all that we as Jews do to connect to the Divine. This celebration requires that we accept where we are and where we are going - not that we change the language that has defined us (or not) for millenia.
Rabbi David says: One more thought. I am not embarrassed or saddened that I am not shomer shabbat and kashrut. On the contrary, I am proud that I am zocher these mitzvot. And I might suggest that we should begin re-examining not what makes something kosher, but what practices make one a serious Jew.
That is great that you are able to feel that way. I find way too many Jews that are embarrassed by the choice they have made, at least when around someone that is shomer kashrut and/or shomer shabbos. I wish more people could feel good rather than embarrased by their choices. Actually, I've written a new post on this blog that touches on this topic.
A new version of Rabbi Barry Leff's teshuvah (mentioned in the comment thread above) is being evaluated by the CJLS (Committee on Jewish Laws and Standards) of the Conservative movement. Rabbi Leff asked for comments on the Shefa yahoo group, and the proceedings were published in pdf format available for download here.
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